Multiplayer flash games

[grizzly]

Hi!

I think there must have been others who have asked these question, I couldnt find any posts though..
my question is:
1. how efficient is smartfox for Flash games? Is it the best available solution including red5?
2. I have 0 experience on multiuser servers, but I can make a game in flash. How difficult it would be to make a multiplayer flash game, what would you advice me to start with (to learn the basics) ?
3.Can I upload smartfox to my server (which is actually eleven2.com) for free? Will it work properly at no additional charge?

thanks
Andrew

[Lapo]

1. how efficient is smartfox for Flash games? Is it the best available solution including red5?

Red5 is not targeted at games, it's a multimedia A/V server that implements RTMP just like FMS.
SmartFoxServer on the other hand is targeted at games and provides higher level APIs on both client and server side.

About efficiency we have recently published a few detailed documents:
http://www.smartfoxserver.com/whitepapers/performance/
http://www.smartfoxserver.com/whitepapers/benchmarks/

How difficult it would be to make a multiplayer flash game, what would you advice me to start with (to learn the basics) ?

This is too generic.
How difficult is to make a game? What game? Pong? Super Mario? Quake III Arena?

Check our documentation. We provide game examples and if you start from example n.1 you'll be guided all the way from zero to hero

3.Can I upload smartfox to my server (which is actually eleven2.com) for free?

SmartFoxServer is an application so you don't just "upload" it.
You have to install it and run it.
If you don't know how to do it, you can read our docs, "Installation" section.

Will it work properly at no additional charge?

The server comes for free with a 20 users license. Unless you need a higher license there's no additional fees to pay

[starvingeyes]

3.Can I upload smartfox to my server (which is actually eleven2.com) for free?

SmartFoxServer is an application so you don't just "upload" it.
You have to install it and run it.
If you don't know how to do it, you can read our docs, "Installation" section.

Not really helpful...I can install it on my home computer. That's easy, We just don't understand how to install it on our websites. What do we need? Do we need special hosting services? All I think us new people to this want is a step by step guideline on how the f the get this thing to work on a real website.....AND NOT on our home computers. This is the major step that not covered anywhere and it's really frustrating. If it is covered I've been over and over the documentation and I don't see it. I think there must be something that to you is obvious and basic, but to me must be explained. All I want is to get the sample files to work on my website so I know that this thing is worth learning. You have to understand, you cant just google "install smartfoxserver on a website" nothing comes up. Step by step ...what do we do????

Jason

[didibus]

1. how efficient is smartfox for Flash games? Is it the best available solution including red5?

It's really efficient and should handle all your needs. Off course, it's a solution like another, but it'll get you where you want to go no problem.

2. I have 0 experience on multiuser servers, but I can make a game in flash. How difficult it would be to make a multiplayer flash game, what would you advice me to start with (to learn the basics) ?

It will be much harder. You'll need dedication, devotion and discipline or you'll never make it through. I would advise you to start with SmartFoxServer SimpleChat example application. Seriously, if it's your first try at online game, nothing is easier then SFS + Flash.

3.Can I upload smartfox to my server (which is actually eleven2.com) for free? Will it work properly at no additional charge?

SmartFoxServer is free if you don't plan on having more then 20 user connected to it at the same time. On the other hand, your web hosting company might not allow you to install SmartFoxServer on their machines. You need to ask them, we can't know what they'll let you do or not. If they don't, then you need to look for one that does or that already offers SmartFoxServer hosting. You'll probably have more luck with dedicated hosting, but then that comes with a higher price tag. Or you could host it at your house and set you web domain to point to your home computer, that would be free.

[grizzly]

the question about the difficulty of flash multiplayer games meant to say:
I have no problem with the only flash part, I can make games, Im just curious about how Additional efforts it needs to upgrade it to multiplayer? How deep do I have to get into server-client communication?

I will ask my provider thanks. I hope it wont be too much money.
The problem with the in-house server is , that when I shut it down, it shuts down:) you know..

[bacuri]

You have to understand, you cant just google "install smartfoxserver on a website" nothing comes up. Step by step ...what do we do????

Not trying to go against anybody's interests here but, sincerely I would much rather see the SmartFoxServer team concentrate on completing the documentation of the server API, ( which remains inadequately documented to this day ) than clogging the product docs with crash-courses on server administration or any similar sort of "how to have my own MMORPG running in 3 minutes" type of tutorials.

I understand SFS markets itself as a friendly solution to users not familiarized with server administration and network programming. However I believe that
if we want to continue to see outstanding gaming experiences being built on top of SFS, such as the ones that we have been seeing lately in the showcase section, concentrating on API documentation and actually enhancing the server code is paramount.

PS: ( Funny link! ) This thread reminded me of some funny comments about a "make MMORPG button" that I saw on this post :
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?se ... &qid=13051

[Lapo]

sincerely I would much rather see the SmartFoxServer team concentrate on completing the documentation of the server API

Thanks for the input, could you please be more specific?
( from your avatar I'd expect you're referring to the Python version? )
Let us know

Thanks

[Lapo]

or any similar sort of "how to have my own MMORPG running in 3 minutes" type of tutorials.

The only article available here about MMOs is very very far away from any "Make your MMO in 3 minutes" type of thing.
Conversely it shows how many different aspects and skills are involved in the creation of such "monsters", from basic architecture, to security and scalability problems, to beta testing etc...

[didibus]

Oh, about the Python server side extensions, I was wondering how does it compare with action script 3 in terms of efficiency. I guess Java is the quickest of the 3, but since AS3 has this new JIT compiler, I was wondering if it could actually outperform python?

[starvingeyes]

You have to understand, you cant just google "install smartfoxserver on a website" nothing comes up. Step by step ...what do we do????

Not trying to go against anybody's interests here but, sincerely I would much rather see the SmartFoxServer team concentrate on completing the documentation of the server API, ( which remains inadequately documented to this day ) than clogging the product docs with crash-courses on server administration or any similar sort of "how to have my own MMORPG running in 3 minutes" type of tutorials.

I understand SFS markets itself as a friendly solution to users not familiarized with server administration and network programming. However I believe that
if we want to continue to see outstanding gaming experiences being built on top of SFS, such as the ones that we have been seeing lately in the showcase section, concentrating on API documentation and actually enhancing the server code is paramount.

PS: ( Funny link! ) This thread reminded me of some funny comments about a "make MMORPG button" that I saw on this post :
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?se ... &qid=13051

That sucks! Why not make a product that can be up and running in 3 minutes? God forbid something be usable without years and years of experience. God forbid that person that's been doing flash work professionally for 8 years be able to use your program. The reason why all of these multiplayer game servers like smartfoxserver are always going to remain largely untapped and relatively unpopular to the flash designers and developers out there is that they are designed for people like you. And for everybody else we have to pull our hair out trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

This is how it should work in my opinion as a normal professional flash (single player ) game designer. I sign up for a hosting service you run (or a company with hosting that you are partnered with). SmartFoxServer is already installed. I upload the sample files. I learn. I make a game. You sell a million of these things to people like me and make money off of all of our hosting. I expand a service to my advergaming clients (starvingeyes.com). Everyone is happy.

...but until that day, I'm just not going to buy this product. It sucks for people like me.

Jason

[bacuri]

To didibus:
You got a little confused there. AS3 doesn't run on the server, only in the Flash Player. Server-side extensions developed in Actionscript for SmartFoxServer are written using Actionscript 1.0.

To Lapo:

On item 7.1 ( Serverside API ), when you go to the end of the list ( Server Classes ) , documentation for these items is still limited.

And yes, the 3 Python example extensions bundled with the product don't cover some important topics that are covered in the examples for the other languages , but I know Python is sort of the new kid in town so I totally understand that more extensive documentation for it will come with time, I'm sure.

To be honest, this is only my second project with SFS so I'm still getting familiar with the product. Once I'm more educated about it, I will be glad share my feedback, as a small contribution to make the Smartfox even better than it already is.
I really appreciate you reaching out to your user base for feedback.

Oh, and did I forget to mention? ... SFS rocks!

[bacuri]

The reason why all of these multiplayer game servers like smartfoxserver are always going to remain largely untapped and relatively unpopular to the flash designers and developers out there is that they are designed for people like you.

Actually just like you I'm basically a long-time Flash dev, with little experience with technologies outside the Flash world. Maybe I'm just trying harder.

This is how it should work: I upload the sample files. I learn. I make a game. You sell a million of these things to people like me and make money off of all of our hosting. I expand a service to my advergaming clients (starvingeyes.com). Everyone is happy.

The scenario you describe looks OK to the untrained eye, but it's actually not an acurate model of how real world economics works, in my humble opinion. To name 2 things:

a) What's the market value of something that almost anyone can do and can do it in 3 minutes? If you stop and think, many times there's "added value" in most things you have to put some effort into getting it to work.

b) In the end of the day, technology improvements that makes development "a snap" is the same technology evolution that the next day make the developer himself obsolete. Example: Today, your client pays you to do freelance. Tomorrow, he will be able make it in-company and then not "everyone is happy" anymore.

It's definitely a discussion that could go on forever.

Even though you try to put things in very back-or-white terms ( "it sucks" Vs. "evryone is happy") there are actually many complex topics behind this theme, such as:

- software productivity
- technology allowing for personal expression
- game development as an inherently multi-disciplinary field
- technology obsolescence vs. market value vs. labour value
- man labour vs. machine labour


So for now, I guess that for now we will just have to agree to disagree.

[patso]

And for everybody else we have to pull our hair out trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

I don't know about the rest of the developers but I pull my hair too - not only with SFS but with Flash, Java and so on. That I have problem with some software to use or code that doesn't mean that I will give up - I continue to pull my hair and to bang my head in the wall until the wall fall .
And thaks god I have very strong hair and hard head .

Server-side extensions developed in Actionscript for SmartFoxServer are written using Actionscript 1.0.

Actually SFS uses rhino - so it's javascript - almsot the same as AS1

[bacuri]

Well remembered, Patso.

Flash Media Server, Flash Remoting and of course SmartFoxServer all use some flavour of ECMAScript/Javascript thru a Rhino engine, even though they do call it actionscript in the documentation.

(In FMS they even came up with a cooler name, "server-side actionscript" )

As of today, Rhino supports JS 1.5/1.6 but since I don't use .as extensions in SmartFoxServer, I have no idea which version of Rhino SFS uses.

[Lapo]

We're using the latest Rhino release which supports 1.6 and E4X
The reason why we refer mainly to it as Actionscript is obviously for making Flash developers feel at home as much as possible